[robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 166, Issue 5
Toshiyuki Beppu
beppu at matsue-ct.jp
Sat Nov 30 23:37:02 EST 2019
Dear TC/OC/EC,
We miss Christian and Ryan. They did so good work on Sydney days.
The rulebook of SSL would not had been clear without Christian.
The following comments are gathered and agreed among Japanese SSL teams at
a study meeting on this weekend.
First of all, SSL should have a roadmap to 2050.
We have been working for widen the field size and increasing the number of robots
following the transient point of the former roadmap. Now, we are reaching to the
point. Therefore, we need to create a new target beyond this point.
As all of us know, the F180 rule robots cannot make a game with the human champion
team on 2050. We should have our goal to indicate our scientific and technical
improvements on robotics.
On the other hand, esports become more and more popular among people nowadays.
To operate an F180 rule robot with four omni-wheels is difficult for me with our video
game type controller, however. If we develop a VR controller, which displays the
robot sight (not from the SSL Vision, but from the robot itself) to a human
player, and translates player’s movement to the robot, human player will be able to
play a game using SSL robots.
From our point of view, if a human player make a SSL robot act as player’s wishes now,
the human team of 11 esports player will win against the AI operated SSL champion team.
Thus, our proposal for the 2030 transit point of SSL is;
The AI operated robot team will win against the esports players operated team.
At the match, the game should be a scale model of the human soccer. The SSL rule
will be the same as the human’s game.
The size of the current robot is too big against the size of the Div A field. Why don't
we revise the scaling relationship between the SSL and human soccer?
Another option is to change the locomotion type of SSL robots from omni-wheels to
something intermediate between omni-wheels and biped walking. The moving speed
of SSL robots are excessive; no human can run from an end line to another line within
5 seconds.
We should adopt more “soft” ball, since a golf ball rolls without reducing its speed.
No human player can kick a ball from an end line to the other side.
SSL is not a virtual field match like Simulation leagues, we have to deal with the friction
or incomplete condition of the physical field, the error or fluctuation of data conversion
from the physical field to the Vision coordinates, the physical robots have backlash,
skid, bending, or attrition of mechanical parts, and so on. These restrictions on the
physical field are not exist on the simulated field. These unique points give SSL its distinctiveness.
We shall improve our SSL with our distinctiveness.
As EC/TC/OC pointed, the percentage of the waste of time of SSL games are much
longer than that of human games (e.g. loss times are 3 or 4 min. of 45 min.at a human
game). Therefore, we have to direct our best effort to diminish the waste.
However, introducing the wall into the field may kill research themes of SSL;
Following video is champion teams of about 20 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtlThCIcVyA
And this video is a demo game of KIKS in an event.
https://youtu.be/PHqfsPCaqpc
The wall will reduce the waste of time dramatically, as EC/TC/OC intended, but the
wall change SSL games completely.
Will we back to the yesterday?
We need progress toward tomorrow.
We strongly recommend EC/TC/OC not to adopt the wall in round robin games. The
game should be fair.
For testing the wall, EC/TC/OC will be able to assign mandatory technical challenge
games during daytime on Saturday. A team will not attend a wall game will not attend
the tournament games.
After testing the wall at Bordeaux, we can discuss the matter of the field. In my personal
opinion, it is a capable option to adopt the field like indoor soccer.
However, the real factor is not the wall but the ball.
We should adopt a ball that reduces its speed on the field like the real soccer ball.
If a ball reduces its speed, SSL robots will catch up it within the field more, thus
the ball will not cross the line.
And more, if the ball replacement require the time, a referee replacement robot may
be another solution (and the robot will conduct the kick off).
The following comments are to the 2020 rule change draft from Japanese teams:
Number of robots increased to 11 (DivA only)
RD: We agree with this because 11vs11 is the already discussed and this is one
of the important points to realize a real soccer tactics. This meets our implicit plan of
these two or three years. At this moment, we should suppose the current human soccer
as the ultimate goal.
The field size will not change (both Div)
RD: We agree with this from the viewpoint of realizing 11 vs 11. But as other team said,
collision and out of bounds of ball will be happened often. This is a reasonable change.
The reason is that there is still enough space in the Div A field even if the number of
robots increases to 11.
Introducing walls into a subset of games (DivA only)
RD: We don’t agree with this because we think this will kill setplays, tactics and researches
correlated setplays in SSL. This will reduce the losing time. However, whether this idea
is adequate or not depends on what is an assumption for the RoboCup ultimate goal in
2050 and what we have as short, middle, and long term roadmaps/plans to the ultimate
goal. In our opinion, we should not change
Neutral restart with non-static ball (DivA only, only with walls)
RD: We think placement movement should be used instead of a human hand.
Merge indirect and direct free kick into direct free kick (both Div)
RD: We agree with this if tracking an indirect free kick is hard to code.
Remove the double touch foul (both Div)
RD: We disagree with this because the double touch rule encourages robot control
if it is often happened due to imprecision. What was the original reason for introducing
the double touch foul? Won't any ancient troubles happen again if removing it?
MCT: We disagree also. The limitation of 50 mm was decided the era of human referee,
it is too strict for auto refs. Before taking out this rule, widen the limitation to 100 mm or more.
Add a cost to timeouts (DivA only)
RD: We think this change makes rule complicated. For example, a team gets a penalty
kick and want to prepare it via timeout, how do we deal with the situation?
Remove Penalty Kicks (both Div)
RD: We propose keep penalty kick for multiple defense. Because we think the action
of penalty kick is needed for soccer. So we agree with removing penalty kick for three
yellow cards.
Thanks.
Toshi Beppu,
On behalf of four Japanese teams,
KIKS, MCT Susano Logics, Op-Amp, RoboDragons.
----------------------------------------------
Toshiyuki Beppu <beppu at matsue-ct.jp>
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Matsue College, National Institute of Technology
Nishi-Ikuma 14-4, Matsue 690-8518, Japan
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:46:36 -0500
robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. November RoboCup SSL Update and Response to Request of
> Transparency (Carla Cosenza)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:51:22 +0000
> From: Carla Cosenza <carlaszecosenza at hotmail.com>
> To: "robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu" <robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu>
> Subject: [robocup-small] November RoboCup SSL Update and Response to
> Request of Transparency
> Message-ID:
> <CH2PR01MB5895D092DCA6C8BA0FE5CDEFB14F0 at CH2PR01MB5895.prod.exchangelabs.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear SSL Community,
>
>
> We have been striving for a long time to increase actual soccer game-on time during SSL games. Unfortunately, despite several rules iterations, our analysis over the game logs from RoboCup 2018 and 2019 show that we are still far off the mark - games had an average of only 20% actual game-on time during RoboCup 2018, and 15% actual game on time during RoboCup 2019. To make the situation worse, we have far more special game states than game on.
>
>
> All the recent events have been caused by the lack of established procedure for making big changes with rapid adoption for the Small Size League. We were trying to decrease the amount of time not spent on actual soccer during matches and did not manage to come to an agreement. In order to prevent this, we are creating a method for these decisions. Due to its importance, it will be discussed in Bordeaux with representation of all teams and committees.
>
>
> For RoboCup 2020, we have created a proposal for rule changes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EBfKZfXEYq2SpcLzUb7OE68vlUKjJnk_tnaulR5CMO8
>
> You can also find an immutable copy of the document attached to this mail. We encourage teams to give us feedback by the end of November. You can use the comment and suggestion mode or reply to this mail.
>
> If there is well justified concern, we?ll consider it when finalizing the rule changes. Some of the most notable changes are:
>
>
> Walls for field boundaries in some Div A matches
>
> In order to verify the possibility of removing the out of bounds part of the field, we are going to test, in some division A matches, having walls on the boundaries of the field. This will result in having less game states and less time spent placing the ball after it leaves the field. Each team will be required to play at least one game with the walls during the group stage and before the match starts, both teams need to opt out of the walls in order not to use them. The objective of this change is to reduce the amount of time spent not playing soccer during the matches. Our statistical analysis has shown that games had an average of only 20% actual game-on time during RoboCup 2018, and 15% actual game on time during RoboCup 2019.
>
>
> 11 robots and field size for Div A
>
> Having Div A reach 11 robots has been on the SSL roadmap for this year and it will happen. Div A teams will be allowed to have up to 11 robots on field. The only difference is that there will not be an increase in field size. We have measured that even if we do not change the field size, taking Div A to 11 robots will provide a bigger area per robot value (4.9m?) than the current configuration for Div B does (4.5m?).
>
>
> Match Statistics
>
> When discussing rule changes, we need some facts and numbers from past RoboCups to support or reject arguments. We also need to evaluate the effects of changes that were made. That?s why we started to establish a standard statistics database. The SSL committee commits on updating and evaluating these statistics each year.
>
> The code can be found here: https://github.com/RoboCup-SSL/ssl-match-stats
>
> We will prepare an area on the SSL website with more information on this soon.
>
>
> Qualification requirements
>
> We will update the specifications for the qualification videos for Div A. Team have to demonstrate passing (with a more precise definition) and ball placement. Both can still be demonstrated by game play footage, but we will limit the duration of the video for both divisions. This is to encourage teams to work on smooth game play. Details will be included in the qualification webpage<https://ssl.robocup.org/robocup-2020-qualification/>.
>
>
> Technical challenges
>
> We will repeat a version of the SSL-Vision Blackout Challenge. Both divisions are eligible to participate. We will also have a Ball Placement Challenge for Div B teams only. All Div B teams will be required to participate in the Ball Placement Challenge. The intention is to prepare Div B teams to move to Div A. More information about these challenges will be announced later. The current work-in-progress status can be found on GitHub: https://github.com/RoboCup-SSL/technical-challenge-rules.
>
>
> Other reminders and updates
>
> * As stated in the previous email, all teams will be required to bring posters in order to present their changes and improvements to the other teams. Like last year we will schedule a poster session where team members can present and discuss poster contents.
>
> * We are still testing April Tags for SSL Vision. Initial implementation works correctly but more testing is needed. We do not anticipate forcing teams to use the April tags at this competition. However teams should start preparing for tags other than the currently butterfly patterns.
>
>
> All of these changes were based on the long term goals of the Small Size League. The main intended effect is to:
>
> Spend more time solving the game-on regular soccer problem, not on non-soccer behaviors.
>
> In particular, we anticipate ball handling (stealing, possession, dribbling, passing) to be more important now. We are also trying to propose challenges to help Div B teams reach Div A, since Div B is intended to simplify the entrance of a new team to the league.
>
>
> Team Leader Online Meeting
>
> We would also like to invite the team leaders for an online meeting in order to clarify any concerns and discuss the decisions for RoboCup 2020. We ask each team to fill out this form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScXR8BGCPYzZVHh0YUw8S75rYmV5HmCZk6xdenIvRXbV5yhbQ/viewform?usp=sf_link) with the name and email of their team leader so we can send out the invite for the meeting.
>
>
> We look forward to hearing from you!
>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
> The Technical, Organization, and Executive Committees of the Small Size League
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