[robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"

[Angelo Gurzoni Jr]

Hello everybody

I see the point that this rule alone is a source of disputes and a 'fix'
should be shought, however, I have similar concerns to those expressed by
Andrea, particularly the difficulties for referees to see the event in a
split second. Let's remind also that this rule was created to avoid teams
simply putting 3 robots in front of the goal, a similar reason why the
defense area was increased. If we remove it, simply, we may have the problem
it is currently preventing.

 

I also think that we need to be aware that adding 'precision' to the rules,
like defining a specific percentage of the robot in the area, tend not to
work because humans can't detect that with naked eye, neither is simple to
create measurement systems to this end. Teams and referees should focus on
the spirit of the rules, not on their millimeter precision. 

The referee's power to judge an event is important and necessary, so what we
could do (regardless if this rule actually gets modified) is to do what real
soccer and virtually every sport does for referees: The organizing bodies
create guidelines and recommendation to help referees to interpret the
situations. For example, Fifa issues refereeing guidelines giving examples
and suggestions about what level of body contact is to be allowed, to what
level player complaints must be accepted before a yellow card, unsporting
behavior, and so on. 

Amanda, Bahador and Chris started a guide like that, if I recall correctly. 

 

 

 

Cheers

Angelo

 

 

From: robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu
[mailto:robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu] On Behalf Of Andrea Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:09 PM
To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"

 

Hi all,

 

I agree with Yonghai's statement that this rule caused difficultly in
Mexico. However, I think so far the suggestions might make it more difficult
for the referee to monitor.

 

 If a second defender would be allowed in the area and if it would only be
penalized if touched by the ball, then the referee must watch both the ball
(moving at 8 m/s) and the defending robot's proximity to the defense area,
as well as everything else he or she must be watching on the field. 

 

Although reducing referee subjectivity will help with more concrete rules of
the game and procedures over disputes, making the rules too specific by
adding the percentage of the robot that is allowed in the box adds more
complications during the game. How easy will it be for a referee tell the
difference between 50% and 30% of the robot over the line?  I think the
referees need a better explanation of this rule and when to enforce it. Does
it count if an attacking robot pushes the defending robot in the area? Does
it count if the robot is passing through the box, but is not staying in the
box (yes, if the ball touches that robot)? 

 

I can anticipate more arguments during competition around this issue if, for
example, the second defender and the goalie are close to each other, inside
the defense area, and the ball touches one of them. How is a referee
supposed to tell which robot the ball touches? 

 

Finally, if a second defender would be allowed in the area, what would
happen if a third crossed the defense line too? Then, not only would the
referee have to closely watch the third robot to see if it is, in fact, in
the defense area, but also it might require the initial rule that caused
this discussion in the first place. 

 

Please also keep in mind that there are currently only two referees per game
that walk along the sides of the field. During a game, there are usually
many team members with many sets of eyes along the ends of the field who
might have a better view of the defense area, and it is easier for them to
catch what the referees missed.

 

Thanks,

 

Andrea Palmer

UBC Thunderbots 

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Carlos Saith Rodriguez
<saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hello friends

I agree with Yonghai, this rule has created many inconveniences and clashes
between the teams and that's not good for our community.

The proposal is good, but it needs to be very specific. for example, in any
situation in which the defender touches the ball inside the defense area was
penalized.

More over it is necessary to define exactly when a robot is in the defense
area: when the robot touches the line delimiting the area or when 50% of the
robot is inside the area.

We must find a solution to decrease the subjective interpretation of the
referee.

Regards

Saith Rodriguez
STOx's Team Leader




> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:44:15 +0800
> From: liunian at zju.edu.cn
> To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> Subject: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"


> 
> Hi everybody,
> 
> Maybe everybody in Mexico has a very deep impression on the law
> of "Two defender in defence area". There were 3 penalties in the
> Quarterfinals Skuba vs Immortals due to this law.
> Law 12 of rule 2012 give the detial definition: is the second
> defending robot to simultaneously occupy the team's defence area in
> such a way tosubstantially affect game play. But the rule did not
> give a clear definition of "substantially affect game play", is all up
> to the referee. So the problem is comming, i remembered that maybe
> more than 50% argument during the game are related to this law.
> In real soccer game, there has not limitaion of the number of
> defenders in defence area, but only allow the Goal keeper can handle
> the ball, if the other player touch the ball with hand, he will
> receive a read card and the team will receive a penalty.
> We can learn from this real soccer rule. All the robot can enter
> it's own defence area, but only the goal keeper can touch the ball, if
> the other robot touch the ball, the team will receive a read card and
> a penalty.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Yonghai Wu
> _______________________________________________
> robocup-small mailing list
> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small


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