[robocup-small] Automatic referee assisting system

Mon Nov 26 08:38:36 EST 2012

 Hi，
       Maybe  the referee assisting system can say it out by TTS. Let
the main referee make a  decision if it's a real foul


2012/11/24, Nicolai Ommer <nicolai.ommer at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
>
> as Angelo suggested I will herewith start a new thread about the automatic
> referee.
> Last year, we developed on the autonomous referee from Ulfert, adding some
> rule changes, displaying a list of rule breaks and added lots of
> documentation.
> We also created a project site with information and instructions:
> http://code.google.com/p/ssl-autonomous-refbox/
> If you like, you can use the PPA for Ubuntu for easy and fast install to
> try out the software :)
>
> Unfortunately, we do not have the resources to develop the software
> further. At least, not without help. The software has a great base, but now
> it has to be made productive for a real match.
> I think, most of the points that were mentioned by Yonghai can already be
> checked by the software.
>
> However, we should also think about how the software can help the referee
> best.
> Here are some considerations:
>
>  * Run the software in background and let it be watched by an assistant
> referee?
>  * go further by actively sending a STOP signal if a rule break was
> detected?
>
> The idea of a speech recognition sounds good. This would cut off the delay
> between main referee and assistant referee. The assistant referee could
> then maybe concentrate on the automatic referee.
>
> Cheers,
> Nicolai
>
> --
> Nicolai Ommer
> TIGERS Mannheim
> Teamleader computer science
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 1:41 PM, yonghai wu <liunian at zju.edu.cn> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>        I agree with Ulfert, it's time to develop a referee assisting
>> system the help the referee.
>> Let this system to do all the measure job for the referee:
>>     1. if the ball kicked out
>>     2. double touch
>>     3. if the opponent robot  keep enough distance to ball before the
>> ball kicked out.
>>     4. if the attacker keep enough distance to the opponent's defence
>> line.
>>     5. if there are two defender in defence area.
>>     6. ball speed
>>     7. if the ball out of feild.
>>     8. log replay.
>>
>> All this job can be done by the referee assisting system using SSL
>> VISION.
>> ZJUNLICT will plan to develop a demo referee assisting system. And
>> this referee assisting system will support speech recognition which
>> borrow from @HOME, maybe the main referee can control the referee box
>> directly.
>>
>>
>> 2012/11/23, Ulfert <ulfert at double04.de>:
>> > Hi all
>> >
>> > I'm also not active any more, but to tell from my experience as a
>> referee I
>> > can only encourage all Teams to train their referees. Beeing familiar
>> with
>> > the rules and practicing at testing matches at Home is the key to a
>> > good
>> > Performance at the big Events.
>> >
>> > For those situations that are hard to measure by the human referee I
>> > once
>> > developed a referee assisting system which I already promoted in this
>> list,
>> > so just go ahead and use it ;)
>> >
>> > Ulfert
>> >
>> > ----- Reply message -----
>> > Von: "Thanakorn Panyapiang" <stylus_l at hotmail.com>
>> > An: "Carlos Saith Rodriguez" <saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com>,
>> > "robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu" <robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu>
>> > Betreff: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>> > Datum: Fr., Nov. 23, 2012 11:37
>> > It's clearly that this rule is necessary to our league because It's
>> prevent
>> > the negative game play, For example, put all robotin front of the goal.
>> >
>> > In my opinion the problems of this rule is cause by There is no
>> > standard
>> for
>> > the referee decision.
>> > If we add the image visualization for some situation that difficult for
>> > referee into the rule bookor make the video guideline  and distribute
>> > to
>> > teams,It should be reduce conflict in the real match.
>> > Regards,O, Skuba
>> > From: saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com
>> > To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:47 -0500
>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> > It is clear that the rule should not be removed, one of the problems
>> > that
>> > our team had in 2011 and 2012 is related to some referees that have
>> > different interpretations about rules or they just ignore them and we
>> > do
>> not
>> > blame them, we know it's very hard  to know all rules and there are
>> > some
>> > rules that can have multiple interpretations.
>> >
>> > Nevertheless,  I do not think you can compare a FIFA referee with one
>> > of
>> our
>> > league, because they do this every day, are very experienced.
>> >
>> > Our concern is that as all teams have worked hard to get economic
>> resources
>> > and is very frustrating that everything can be truncated by poor
>> refereeing
>> > decisions. We realize that there will always be but not as frecuently.
>> >
>> > It would be great create a guide that should be released months before
>> the
>> > competitions.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Saith Rodriguez
>> > STOx's Team Leader
>> >
>> > From: jgurzoni at yahoo.com.br
>> > To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:33:48 -0200
>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>> >
>> > Hello everybodyI see the point that this rule alone is a source of
>> disputes
>> > and a ‘fix’ should be shought, however, I have similar concerns to
>> > those
>> > expressed by Andrea, particularly the difficulties for referees to see
>> the
>> > event in a split second. Let’s remind also that this rule was created
>> > to
>> > avoid teams simply putting 3 robots in front of the goal, a similar
>> reason
>> > why the defense area was increased. If we remove it, simply, we may
>> > have
>> the
>> > problem it is currently preventing. I also think that we need to be
>> > aware
>> > that adding ‘precision’ to the rules, like defining a specific
>> percentage of
>> > the robot in the area, tend not to work because humans can’t detect
>> > that
>> > with naked eye, neither is simple to create measurement systems to this
>> end.
>> > Teams and referees should focus on the spirit of the rules, not on
>> > their
>> > millimeter precision. The referee’s power to judge an event is
>> > important
>> and
>> > necessary, so what we could do (regardless if this rule actually gets
>> > modified) is to do what real soccer and virtually every sport does for
>> > referees: The organizing bodies create guidelines and recommendation to
>> help
>> > referees to interpret the situations. For example, Fifa issues
>> > refereeing
>> > guidelines giving examples and suggestions about what level of body
>> contact
>> > is to be allowed, to what level player complaints must be accepted
>> before a
>> > yellow card, unsporting behavior, and so on. Amanda, Bahador and Chris
>> > started a guide like that, if I recall correctly.    CheersAngelo
>> > From:
>> > robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu
>> > [mailto:robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu] On Behalf Of Andrea Palmer
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:09 PM
>> > To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>> Hi
>> > all, I agree with Yonghai's statement that this rule caused difficultly
>> in
>> > Mexico. However, I think so far the suggestions might make it more
>> difficult
>> > for the referee to monitor.  If a second defender would be allowed in
>> > the
>> > area and if it would only be penalized if touched by the ball, then the
>> > referee must watch both the ball (moving at 8 m/s) and the defending
>> robot's
>> > proximity to the defense area, as well as everything else he or she
>> > must
>> be
>> > watching on the field.  Although reducing referee subjectivity will
>> > help
>> > with more concrete rules of the game and procedures over disputes,
>> > making
>> > the rules too specific by adding the percentage of the robot that is
>> allowed
>> > in the box adds more complications during the game. How easy will it be
>> for
>> > a referee tell the difference between 50% and 30% of the robot over the
>> > line?  I think the referees need a better explanation of this rule and
>> when
>> > to enforce it. Does it count if an attacking robot pushes the defending
>> > robot in the area? Does it count if the robot is passing through the
>> > box,
>> > but is not staying in the box (yes, if the ball touches that robot)?  I
>> can
>> > anticipate more arguments during competition around this issue if, for
>> > example, the second defender and the goalie are close to each other,
>> inside
>> > the defense area, and the ball touches one of them. How is a referee
>> > supposed to tell which robot the ball touches?  Finally, if a second
>> > defender would be allowed in the area, what would happen if a third
>> crossed
>> > the defense line too? Then, not only would the referee have to closely
>> watch
>> > the third robot to see if it is, in fact, in the defense area, but also
>> it
>> > might require the initial rule that caused this discussion in the first
>> > place.  Please also keep in mind that there are currently only two
>> referees
>> > per game that walk along the sides of the field. During a game, there
>> > are
>> > usually many team members with many sets of eyes along the ends of the
>> field
>> > who might have a better view of the defense area, and it is easier for
>> them
>> > to catch what the referees missed. Thanks, Andrea PalmerUBC Thunderbots
>> On
>> > Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Carlos Saith Rodriguez
>> > <saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com> wrote:Hello friends
>> >
>> > I agree with Yonghai, this rule has created many inconveniences and
>> clashes
>> > between the teams and that's not good for our community.
>> >
>> > The proposal is good, but it needs to be very specific. for example, in
>> any
>> > situation in which the defender touches the ball inside the defense
>> > area
>> was
>> > penalized.
>> >
>> > More over it is necessary to define exactly when a robot is in the
>> defense
>> > area: when the robot touches the line delimiting the area or when 50%
>> > of
>> the
>> > robot is inside the area.
>> >
>> > We must find a solution to decrease the subjective interpretation of
>> > the
>> > referee.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Saith Rodriguez
>> > STOx's Team Leader
>> >
>> >
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:44:15 +0800
>> >> From: liunian at zju.edu.cn
>> >> To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> >> Subject: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>> >>
>> >> Hi everybody,
>> >>
>> >> Maybe everybody in Mexico has a very deep impression on the law
>> >> of "Two defender in defence area". There were 3 penalties in the
>> >> Quarterfinals Skuba vs Immortals due to this law.
>> >> Law 12 of rule 2012 give the detial definition: is the second
>> >> defending robot to simultaneously occupy the team's defence area in
>> >> such a way tosubstantially affect game play. But the rule did not
>> >> give a clear definition of "substantially affect game play", is all up
>> >> to the referee. So the problem is comming, i remembered that maybe
>> >> more than 50% argument during the game are related to this law.
>> >> In real soccer game, there has not limitaion of the number of
>> >> defenders in defence area, but only allow the Goal keeper can handle
>> >> the ball, if the other player touch the ball with hand, he will
>> >> receive a read card and the team will receive a penalty.
>> >> We can learn from this real soccer rule. All the robot can enter
>> >> it's own defence area, but only the goal keeper can touch the ball, if
>> >> the other robot touch the ball, the team will receive a read card and
>> >> a penalty.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards.
>> >>
>> >> Yonghai Wu
>> >> _______________________________________________
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