[robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 67, Issue 1

Sat Sep 25 19:51:41 EDT 2010

All,

Below are some of my thoughts on how to increase the field size and
help new teams. Note my primary area of work on robocup is in
mechanical design and integration, so my familiarization with the
challenges imposed on software aspects is somewhat limited.

Team Size & Game Play Dynamics
3 robots per group and 3 groups per team. This would give 9 robots
total and add the ability to conduct voting on game play actions. For
example who to pass to. Each group could also veto actions involving
their own members. For example if group 1's robot number two has a
broken component and can't kick, but can still guard or block. Each
group on a team could focus on one element of game play (scoring,
defense, etc). This would mirror the way humans tend play a certain
position / focus on certain tactics. Some teams already clearly focus
on defense or offense and this would allow for progression of
strategy. Game play advancement would be forced since groups would be
have to collaborate on it to successfully compete.

Simplified Decision Communication Example
I'm using passing as an example. This wont work for every type of
action, and this exact method might not be the best.
1. Each group submits a list of who they want to receive the ball.
2. Each position a robot appears on a the list it gets some points
(1st gets 9pts, 2nd 8pts, etc)
3. The one with the highest rank is picked to receive the pass.
4. Robot capability verified with who it belongs to. Fault could be
detected with encoder, break beam performance, etc.
-- This in a way gives each robot on the field some say in how the
game is played.
5. Pass attempted or robot next in line is passed to.
Note: Assigning points for a vote still works with 2 groups, but there
are most likely some situations where assigning points wouldn't make
sense. And Yes / No is best. This only works with 3 groups.
Additionally, I'm not implying that voting be conducted on every game
action.

Common frame work for communication with in teams
This would be needed and I think is natural / necessary since humans
on the same team communicate (verbally, signs, and body language).
Robot players would need something similar. We have a network at each
field already so adding this as another use wouldn't require any
infrastructure change. One requirement is that the opposing team
should not be allowed to see what the other team is trying to do.

For Clarification
- Each team would be yellow or blue
- Each group would be RoboJackets, OMID, CMDragons, etc.

How to do Round Robin
Increase the number of matches. We can do this as there is plenty of
time at the competition to do it. With new vision system many teams
now utilize laptops to run their systems and are able to move from one
field to another. As this was done in the afternoons in Singapore for
testing / scrimmage matches among teams. Each team gets 2 points if
their side wins, 1 point for tie (only if scoring is involved), and
tie breakers in ranking could be done by looking at total or average
points scored per game. In theory if you have enough matches the best
groups would be filtered out for eliminations as they would move
toward the top of the pool. I think this is possible given the current
number of teams in the league and the amount of down time experienced
during the competition.

How to do Finals
Teams would be formed from each of the highest ranked groups from
their respective "home field". The top 3 from each field would form a
team that would stay constant through eliminations. You need at least
4 fields to do this. Home fields would be determined the same way that
groups are presently split up in to fields. What ever the current
system is each field has a good sampling of teams (both in terms of
global location and capability).

Removing Barriers for New Teams and Growing The League
- We would be decreasing the number of robots each team is required to have
-- This has two effects:
--- Maintenance concerns are reduced (if you still build 6 robots you
will be more than prepared with spares)
--- A new team's cost to build a fleet are reduced by a 1/3 (assuming
they build 4).
- We are allowing teams to only have a predominantly defensive
strategy if they choose
-- Teams should state if they are in fact limited to only this as part
of qualification and only a certain percentage of teams should be
allowed in with this status.
- As a league we should develop a common best practices document,
wiki, or something
-- We have received a few emails asking for help and advice
specifically with omni wheels and I general have given each the same
advice. (Apologies if I did not reply to your email.)
-- This document doesn't need full design drawings and I don't feel
that would be the best way to approach it as everyone has different
tools. You design based on what you can build with what tools you
have.
-- This could save new teams months off of development time as we have
literally spent months on such things as:
--- Whats the best rubber to use on omni wheel rollers, on the
dribbler, whats needed to make a safe & reliable kicker circuit, how
big do the traces on the boards need to be to do X, etc...
-- Many of these small details are never covered in TDP's (as that is
not their intended purpose) and the only way to gain real insight is
to go to the competition and talk to people with their robots (this
something that has been very valuable to our team). This is too late
for new teams. While email works there is only so much you can
remember to tell people and they are only talking to one person.
- With a larger filed a suggested reference/test field should be
standardized to give new teams a defined environment.
-- For our team getting a larger space at our school to do testing is
both a political and monetary impossibility.
-- New teams will have a harder time finding space to test than any of
the current teams.
-- I think that the current field is a good candidate for this or
maybe a field that is missing 1/2 or 1/3 of the length.

Ways This Advances SSL and Other Improvement Thoughts
- Reinforce the necessity for low latency system performance
-- When we started, just handling vision in a timely matter was hard
for our team. Powerful multicore CPUs and GPUs now exist in a laptop
form factor.
- Force real mixed teams, and multiple decision agents.
- The ability of teams to focus on specific aspects of game play.
- Move to 4 1080p cameras with a move to a larger field?
- Develop standard field construction documents. The ones in Singapore
were pretty nice. The foam backed goals were interesting. Do drawings
and spec's exist for the fields if so could they be published?
- If vision could handle 4 cameras we could test in more places as the
cameras could be lower to the field. The high ceilings that 2 cameras
require at present is hard to find. I've been told that this
functionality is somewhat present / easy to add. I think this
functionality being fully implemented would add some much needed
flexibility for everyone.

Thanks,

PS - If requested I will post this on our wiki in a more readable format.

--
Stefan Posey
RoboCup Mechanical Lead, RoboJackets
http://www.robojackets.org

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Mustafa Talaeezadeh <brother.t at live.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
>     I think we all agree on the expansion of the field size. The thing is,
> the purpose of the SSL is teamwork, with realistic physiques involved, so,
> Dear Omid, I think the more preparation time for "joining" (instead of
> mixing) is in contrast with the main purpose; the robots should play their
> tactics IN COMBINATION with others, not alongside, nor dominated by.
>    The latter matter, the number of robots; Though increasing the number of
> robots helps integrity in tactics, the matter of maintenance is still
> causing issues, both financial and technical, specially "newbies". So I
> think we should put our heads together to find AN OPTIMUM number of
> robots of each team to be shared in a mixed-team, and that can be tested in
> local events' Technical Challenges and feedbacks sent to the Community and
> the Committee.
>    I myself, regardless of my respectful fellows, suggest that each mixed
> team be formed as a 12-robot combination of 2 discrete teams, with
> some FLEXIBLE limitation for each team; by that I mean if a team have 5
> robots to share instead of 6 (= 12 / 2), the other team is allowed to put 7
> robots in the mixed team; but all teams should AT LEAST have 3 robots in the
> field, that means NO team can have more than 9 robots, and the mixed team
> that have less than 6 robots in the field PERMANENTLY (being fixed alongside
> the field and the game, and timeouts are excepted), will be OUT, 10 to 0 in
> the favor of the opponent, if both mixed teams hit the criteria, the TIE,
> 0-0 will be put as the result. By these, the matches keep their toughness
> and still welcome newbies.
>
> PS: Practically, less than 3 robots mans a 2-2 junior soccer team with
> vision that is provided for them dedicated!, and joint AI's!
>
> Peace and Love
> Mustafa Talaeezadeh Khousani
>
> From: Omid Bakhshandeh
>
> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: Mani Monajjemi
> Cc: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 67, Issue 1
> Hi,
>
> Dear Mani I think increasing robots up to 7 or 8 is possible, now teams in
> SSL have at least 1 robot as backup.Mixed team is a good idea if teams have
> time for preparation with each other.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mani Monajjemi <mani.monajjemi at gmail.com>
> To: Omid Bakhshandeh <omidtnt2004 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:03:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 67, Issue 1
>
> Hi all,
>
> From my point of view, increasing the field size is a good idea,
> however increasing the number of robots per team will make the SSL
> harder for new-comers to join. In addition, extending the number of
> robots for many currently active teams might be so expensive, besides,
> maintenance of  for example 10 robots is much more challenging and
> expensive than maintenance of 5 or 6 robots.
>
> I think it would be better if we consider mixed-team competitions as a
> solution to put more robots on a expanded field.
>
> Regards,
> Mani Monajjemi
> Parsian Member
>
> On 9/23/10, Omid Bakhshandeh <omidtnt2004 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi dear all,
>> What is your idea about changing the field size after 3 years and add more
>> robots  to small size game to decrease the distance between real  soccer
>> game
>> and small size robots cooperation? I think SSL-Vision will support the
>> size
>> ,
>> all team can test and inform others about the size of field.
>>
>>
>> Best Wishes
>>
>> Omid Bakhshandeh
>>
>> MRL Member
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu"
>> <robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu>
>> To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 8:30:01 PM
>> Subject: robocup-small Digest, Vol 67, Issue 1
>>
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>>    1. Dear all (KANJANAPAN SUKVICHAI)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:20:04 +0700
>> From: KANJANAPAN SUKVICHAI <fengkpsc at ku.ac.th>
>> Subject: [robocup-small] Dear all
>> To: <robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu>
>> Message-ID: <d5f16dde301f1558d41dce9b9e6ef055 at ku.ac.th>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>    It has been 2 months after robocup 2010, Singapore.  Before TCs start
>> to
>> discuss about Robocup 2011 rule, we would like to welcome all of you send
>> any comments or suggestions to us in order to make next Robocup better.
>>
>>
>> Cheer!
>> KANJA
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> End of robocup-small Digest, Vol 67, Issue 1
>> ********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mani Monajjemi
>
>
> ________________________________
>
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