[robocup-humanoid] WG: [Fwd: Field sizes used in 2008]
Javier Ruiz-del-Solar
jruizd at cec.uchile.cl
Thu Aug 21 09:06:26 EDT 2008
Dear Oskar:
I fully agree with your opinion.
The technical limitations of one league can not impose constrains in
the development of highly dynamic leagues (humanoid and SPL).
Best regards.
Javier
> Hi All,
>
> There can not be any doubt that an ancient and very moderately
> progressing league can _not_ impose any constraints on the development
> of a such an actively and dramatically progressing league like the
> humanoid league further to the RoboCup 2050 goal!
>
> We should first discuss which field size is best for the humanoid
> league and then discuss how to consider other constraints.
> The team leader voting in Suzhou was in favor of a moderate increase
> in field size.
>
> The only reason I can imagine why RoboCup trustees want to have more
> standardized field sizes can only be the cost of the fields.
>
> The main cost for HL field has been the special lighting
> but as the voting about lighting in the team leader meeting in Suzhou
> clearly said, the HL will probably go to indoor lighting (TC still has
> to discuss).
> But then cost is not a reason to have different field sizes
> in HL and other leagues like SSL.
>
> Regards,
> Oskar
>
> P.S.
> SSL could be more progressive and introduce a combination
> of global and local vision in 2009 to cover a larger field size.
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Thomas Röfer wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> before discussing an increase of the field size, I forward a reaction
>> from
>> the Small Size League to my initial e-mail about field sizes. So far,
>> they
>> seem to be reluctant about increasing the size. So if we really want
>> to
>> increase the size, we must be pretty convincing:
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: zickler at gmail.com [mailto:zickler at gmail.com] Im Auftrag von
>> Stefan
>> Zickler
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2008 18:24
>> An: Alexander Hofmann; Mahisorn Wongphati; Alfredo Weitzenfeld;
>> small-size-committees at informatik.uni-bremen.de
>> Cc: Thomas.Roefer at dfki.de
>> Betreff: Re: [Fwd: Field sizes used in 2008]
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I think the current SSL field-size has reached its limit given the
>> two-camera setup, both in terms of resolution and distortion/occlusion
>> caused by the very wide angle we have to cover. Many teams have
>> already bought new lenses for this year, so we should maintain current
>> field size as much as possible until we will eventually scale up the
>> size significantly for 11 vs. 11 in 2011 or 2012. Such a significant
>> scale-up should in my opinion only happen once shared vision is fully
>> established and we will be able to run 4 cameras per field.
>>
>> As Tim suggested, this should not be too much of a problem for the
>> other leagues. SPL and Humanoid should be able to easily adapt to the
>> current SSL field-size, leaving only Aibo, which is being replaced by
>> the new SPL anyhow.
>>
>> I have also had a short chat with Manuela and she agrees that SSL
>> might have to "dictate" field sizes due to our global vision
>> constraints, which is fine with her as long as all leagues agree on
>> one field size.
>>
>> I think for now we should focus on two things:
>> - ensure that current SSL size can and will be used among the other
>> leagues for this and possibly next year.
>> - coordinate with the other leagues about an eventual significant
>> scale-up of the field in 2011 or 2012. I think such a scale-up would
>> also benefit humanoid and SPL as their locomotion and teamplay should
>> become more robust in the future.
>>
>> In terms of field markings we should try to find out the specific
>> requirements of the other leagues and then create a proposal that
>> incorporates our needs.
>>
>> Thomas already brought up the idea of having two rectangular defense
>> areas. This might actually work out well for small-size, as the
>> smaller one could take the role of the traditional defense area, and
>> the larger one could become what's currently the 90cm radius for fair
>> "header" positioning during corner-kicks. Having a line to better
>> enforce this rule might actually be beneficial (as it was hard to ref
>> this without markings in place).
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Stefan
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Alexander Hofmann
>> <alexander.hofmann at technikum-wien.at> wrote:
>>> In my opinion we should keep the current size for 2009 and start a
>>> discussion for 2010 right now. We should start to publish major rule
>> changes
>>> 1 year before, so every team can slowly adapt their systems.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Alexander Hofmann
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Mahisorn Wongphati [mailto:mahisorn.w at gmail.com]
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2008 14:24
>>> An: Alfredo Weitzenfeld
>>> Cc: small-size-committees at informatik.uni-bremen.de
>>> Betreff: Re: [Fwd: Field sizes used in 2008]
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm do agree with Alfredo. For our league, crease the field size to
>>> match
>>> the biggest one still possible. And change the defense area to
>>> rectangular
>>> shape may reduce some work of the constructor too.
>>>
>>> The only problem for increase the field size it the camera
>>> resolution.
>>> Currently, Plasma-Z camera resolution is about 800x600 at 60Hz increase
>>> the
>>> size of the field will not much effect them. However, team with
>>> 640x480
>> will
>>> surely have the problem with this change.
>>>
>>> Further more, at 4 m height some team's camera will not cover the
>>> whole
>>> field for anymore. (Please see the attchement).
>>>
>>> Finally, If we (all leagues) need to change the field size. The most
>> effect
>>> league may be the SSL because we are the only league that use the
>>> global
>>> camera. We should mention this issue to trustees to give us
>>> additional
>>> weight for our vote. The additional detail about this size and
>>> ratio of
>> the
>>> field issue also in the attached table. The may give us some aspect
>>> about
>>> the percentage of play area change between each field size.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Mahisorn Wongphati
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Alfredo Weitzenfeld
>>> <alfredo at itam.mx>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> From the table Tim sent, field sizes don't differ that much between
>>>> leagues with the exception of MSL. Actually, SPL AIBO has slightly
>>>> bigger field than us and others are very similar.
>>>> So I wouldn't see a problem to standardize for next year.
>>>> In the future, other leagues will probably want to increase their
>>>> fields as well, so we can coordinate with them on that.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alfredo
>>>>
>>>> Prof. Dr. Alfredo Weitzenfeld
>>>> Director ROBOTICS and CANNES Labs
>>>> Computer Engineering Dept
>>>> ITAM
>>>> Río Hondo #1, San Angel Tizapán
>>>> México DF, MEXICO CP 01000
>>>> email: alfredo at itam.mx
>>>> tel: +52-55-56284000 ext 3614
>>>> tel: +52-55-56284060
>>>> fax: +52-55-56284065
>>>> ROBOTICS Lab: http://robotica.itam.mx
>>>> CANNES Lab: http://cannes.itam.mx
>>>> http://www.cannes.itam.mx/Alfredo/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>> De: Naruse Tadashi [mailto:naruse at ist.aichi-pu.ac.jp]
>>>> Enviado el: Lunes, 28 de Julio de 2008 07:38 p.m.
>>>> Para: Tim Laue; small-size-committees at informatik.uni-bremen.de
>>>> Asunto: Re: [Fwd: Field sizes used in 2008]
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> The uniform field was suddenly proposed by Manuela this April. She
>>>> requested the change this year. The reason was "Just for consistency
>>>> for RoboCup in general".
>>>> Since we had no time to change the field, we refused this year's
>>>> change.
>>>> So the issue start toward the next year.
>>>>
>>>> My opinion.
>>>> It depends on how we realize the future plan of SSL, i.e. 11 on 11
>>>> games. In case of 11 on 11 game, current field size is clearly too
>>>> small. We cannot accept the uniform field except for the case that
>>>> each league agreed with the SSL's larger field.
>>>> So, we should decide the future plan (these five years) as soon as
>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tadashi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Laue wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Field sizes used in 2008
>>>>> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:06:42 +0200
>>>>> From: Thomas Röfer <Thomas.Roefer at dfki.de>
>>>>> Reply-To: <Thomas.Roefer at dfki.de>
>>>>> Organization: DFKI-Labor Bremen
>>>>> To: 'Humanoid League Technical & Organization Committees 2008'
>>>>> <humanoid08 at jeap.org>, <spl_tech at tzi.de>, 'Tim Laue'
>>>>> <timlaue at informatik.uni-bremen.de>
>>>>>
>>>>> @Tim Laue: please forward to SSL TC
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> since the trustees want us to come up with a single field size for
>>>>> all leagues except the Middle Size League, Tim Laue and I have
>>>>> collected the current dimensions of the fields in our five
>>>>> competitions. Since the different leagues measure different
>>>>> distances
>>>>> to describe their field layout (e.g. center of line to center of
>>>>> line
>>>>> vs. outside of line to outside of line), we described the
>>>>> dimensions
>>>>> in a unified outside of line to outside of line manner. The only
>>>>> exception is the specification of the crosses in the Humanoid
>>>>> League,
>>>>> the position of which is given in a center of line to center of
>>>>> line
>>>>> fashion, since these crosses do not exist in other leagues anyway.
>>>>> For now, we left out the goals. We can talk about goals later.
>>>>>
>>>>> The motivation for outside to outside measurements is that the
>>>>> lines
>>>>> are usually part of the area they surround.
>>>>>
>>>>> The general idea is to come up with a set of dimensions that fits
>>>>> for
>>>>> all competitions. Since the size of the penalty area depends on the
>>>>> size of
>>>> the
>>>>> goal, we also might think about two penalty areas on the same
>>>>> field.
>>>>> In some competitions, the smaller one is used, in others the bigger
>>>>> one is employed.
>>>>>
>>>>> After all TC members looked at the current dimensions, we can start
>>>>> making suggestions for the "RoboCup Small Field".
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas Röfer
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>>> __
>>>>> __
>>>>> Dr. Thomas Röfer
>>>>> DFKI Bremen
>>>>> Safe and Secure Cognitive Systems
>>>>> Cartesium 00.055
>>>>> Enrique-Schmidt-Str. 5
>>>>> 28359 Bremen, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dfki.de
>>>>> www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~roefer
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: +49 (421) 218-64200
>>>>> Fax: +49 (421) 218-9864200
>>>>> eMail: Thomas.Roefer at dfki.de
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz GmbH
>>>>> Firmensitz: Trippstadter Straße 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>>
>>>>> Geschäftsführung:
>>>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr.
>>>>> Walter
>>>>> Olthoff
>>>>>
>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>>
>>>>> Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mahisorn Wongphati
>>> Mishima, Japan
>>>
>>> Simple != Easy
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Oskar von Stryk E-Mail:
> stryk(at)sim.tu-darmstadt.de
> Simulation, Systems Optimization Phone: ++49 (0) 6151-16-2513
> and Robotics Fax: ++49 (0) 6151-16-6648
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------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Javier Ruiz-del-Solar
Universidad de Chile
Department of Electrical Engineering
Av. Tupper 2007, 837-0451 Santiago, Chile
Ph. +56-2-978 4207
Fax +56-2-6720162
Email: jruizd at ing.uchile.cl
WWW: http://www.cec.uchile.cl/~jruizd
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