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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hello<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Did anybody have a chance to play the logs of the Mexico games into the automated ref box and compare its output to the commands actually recorded by the referee of the match ? I am thinking about doing that, but running short of time<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Angelo<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu [mailto:robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicolai Ommer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:44 AM<br><b>To:</b> robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [robocup-small] Automatic referee assisting system<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi,<br>I would suggest to use headsets for the main referees to avoid the problems Christopher mentioned. We should also make sure, that only the main referee is able to interrupt the game ;)<br><br>The TTS is a good idea. However, I'm not sure if this makes sense in a loud environment. Here too, a headset would be appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:38 PM, yonghai wu <<a href="mailto:liunian@zju.edu.cn" target="_blank">liunian@zju.edu.cn</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Hi<span style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>，</span><br> Maybe the referee assisting system can say it out by TTS. Let<br>the main referee make a decision if it's a real foul<br><br><br>2012/11/24, Nicolai Ommer <<a href="mailto:nicolai.ommer@gmail.com">nicolai.ommer@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>> Hi,<br>><br>> as Angelo suggested I will herewith start a new thread about the automatic<br>> referee.<br>> Last year, we developed on the autonomous referee from Ulfert, adding some<br>> rule changes, displaying a list of rule breaks and added lots of<br>> documentation.<br>> We also created a project site with information and instructions:<br>> <a href="http://code.google.com/p/ssl-autonomous-refbox/" target="_blank">http://code.google.com/p/ssl-autonomous-refbox/</a><br>> If you like, you can use the PPA for Ubuntu for easy and fast install to<br>> try out the software :)<br>><br>> Unfortunately, we do not have the resources to develop the software<br>> further. At least, not without help. The software has a great base, but now<br>> it has to be made productive for a real match.<br>> I think, most of the points that were mentioned by Yonghai can already be<br>> checked by the software.<br>><br>> However, we should also think about how the software can help the referee<br>> best.<br>> Here are some considerations:<br>><br>> * Run the software in background and let it be watched by an assistant<br>> referee?<br>> * go further by actively sending a STOP signal if a rule break was<br>> detected?<br>><br>> The idea of a speech recognition sounds good. This would cut off the delay<br>> between main referee and assistant referee. The assistant referee could<br>> then maybe concentrate on the automatic referee.<br>><br>> Cheers,<br>> Nicolai<br>><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>> --<br>> Nicolai Ommer<br>> TIGERS Mannheim<br>> Teamleader computer science<br>><br>><br>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 1:41 PM, yonghai wu <<a href="mailto:liunian@zju.edu.cn">liunian@zju.edu.cn</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> Hi all,<br>>><br>>> I agree with Ulfert, it's time to develop a referee assisting<br>>> system the help the referee.<br>>> Let this system to do all the measure job for the referee:<br>>> 1. if the ball kicked out<br>>> 2. double touch<br>>> 3. if the opponent robot keep enough distance to ball before the<br>>> ball kicked out.<br>>> 4. if the attacker keep enough distance to the opponent's defence<br>>> line.<br>>> 5. if there are two defender in defence area.<br>>> 6. ball speed<br>>> 7. if the ball out of feild.<br>>> 8. log replay.<br>>><br>>> All this job can be done by the referee assisting system using SSL<br>>> VISION.<br>>> ZJUNLICT will plan to develop a demo referee assisting system. And<br>>> this referee assisting system will support speech recognition which<br>>> borrow from @HOME, maybe the main referee can control the referee box<br>>> directly.<br>>><br>>><br>>> 2012/11/23, Ulfert <<a href="mailto:ulfert@double04.de">ulfert@double04.de</a>>:<br>>> > Hi all<br>>> ><br>>> > I'm also not active any more, but to tell from my experience as a<br>>> referee I<br>>> > can only encourage all Teams to train their referees. Beeing familiar<br>>> with<br>>> > the rules and practicing at testing matches at Home is the key to a<br>>> > good<br>>> > Performance at the big Events.<br>>> ><br>>> > For those situations that are hard to measure by the human referee I<br>>> > once<br>>> > developed a referee assisting system which I already promoted in this<br>>> list,<br>>> > so just go ahead and use it ;)<br>>> ><br>>> > Ulfert<br>>> ><br>>> > ----- Reply message -----<br>>> > Von: "Thanakorn Panyapiang" <<a href="mailto:stylus_l@hotmail.com">stylus_l@hotmail.com</a>><br>>> > An: "Carlos Saith Rodriguez" <<a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a>>,<br>>> > "<a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a>><br>>> > Betreff: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>>> > Datum: Fr., Nov. 23, 2012 11:37<br>>> > It's clearly that this rule is necessary to our league because It's<br>>> prevent<br>>> > the negative game play, For example, put all robotin front of the goal.<br>>> ><br>>> > In my opinion the problems of this rule is cause by There is no<br>>> > standard<br>>> for<br>>> > the referee decision.<br>>> > If we add the image visualization for some situation that difficult for<br>>> > referee into the rule bookor make the video guideline and distribute<br>>> > to<br>>> > teams,It should be reduce conflict in the real match.<br>>> > Regards,O, Skuba<br>>> > From: <a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a><br>>> > To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:47 -0500<br>>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> > Hi everyone,<br>>> ><br>>> > It is clear that the rule should not be removed, one of the problems<br>>> > that<br>>> > our team had in 2011 and 2012 is related to some referees that have<br>>> > different interpretations about rules or they just ignore them and we<br>>> > do<br>>> not<br>>> > blame them, we know it's very hard to know all rules and there are<br>>> > some<br>>> > rules that can have multiple interpretations.<br>>> ><br>>> > Nevertheless, I do not think you can compare a FIFA referee with one<br>>> > of<br>>> our<br>>> > league, because they do this every day, are very experienced.<br>>> ><br>>> > Our concern is that as all teams have worked hard to get economic<br>>> resources<br>>> > and is very frustrating that everything can be truncated by poor<br>>> refereeing<br>>> > decisions. We realize that there will always be but not as frecuently.<br>>> ><br>>> > It would be great create a guide that should be released months before<br>>> the<br>>> > competitions.<br>>> ><br>>> > Regards<br>>> ><br>>> > Saith Rodriguez<br>>> > STOx's Team Leader<br>>> ><br>>> > From: <a href="mailto:jgurzoni@yahoo.com.br">jgurzoni@yahoo.com.br</a><br>>> > To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:33:48 -0200<br>>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>>> ><br>>> > Hello everybodyI see the point that this rule alone is a source of<br>>> disputes<br>>> > and a ‘fix’ should be shought, however, I have similar concerns to<br>>> > those<br>>> > expressed by Andrea, particularly the difficulties for referees to see<br>>> the<br>>> > event in a split second. Let’s remind also that this rule was created<br>>> > to<br>>> > avoid teams simply putting 3 robots in front of the goal, a similar<br>>> reason<br>>> > why the defense area was increased. If we remove it, simply, we may<br>>> > have<br>>> the<br>>> > problem it is currently preventing. I also think that we need to be<br>>> > aware<br>>> > that adding ‘precision’ to the rules, like defining a specific<br>>> percentage of<br>>> > the robot in the area, tend not to work because humans can’t detect<br>>> > that<br>>> > with naked eye, neither is simple to create measurement systems to this<br>>> end.<br>>> > Teams and referees should focus on the spirit of the rules, not on<br>>> > their<br>>> > millimeter precision. The referee’s power to judge an event is<br>>> > important<br>>> and<br>>> > necessary, so what we could do (regardless if this rule actually gets<br>>> > modified) is to do what real soccer and virtually every sport does for<br>>> > referees: The organizing bodies create guidelines and recommendation to<br>>> help<br>>> > referees to interpret the situations. For example, Fifa issues<br>>> > refereeing<br>>> > guidelines giving examples and suggestions about what level of body<br>>> contact<br>>> > is to be allowed, to what level player complaints must be accepted<br>>> before a<br>>> > yellow card, unsporting behavior, and so on. Amanda, Bahador and Chris<br>>> > started a guide like that, if I recall correctly. CheersAngelo<br>>> > From:<br>>> > <a href="mailto:robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Andrea Palmer<br>>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:09 PM<br>>> > To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>>> Hi<br>>> > all, I agree with Yonghai's statement that this rule caused difficultly<br>>> in<br>>> > Mexico. However, I think so far the suggestions might make it more<br>>> difficult<br>>> > for the referee to monitor. If a second defender would be allowed in<br>>> > the<br>>> > area and if it would only be penalized if touched by the ball, then the<br>>> > referee must watch both the ball (moving at 8 m/s) and the defending<br>>> robot's<br>>> > proximity to the defense area, as well as everything else he or she<br>>> > must<br>>> be<br>>> > watching on the field. Although reducing referee subjectivity will<br>>> > help<br>>> > with more concrete rules of the game and procedures over disputes,<br>>> > making<br>>> > the rules too specific by adding the percentage of the robot that is<br>>> allowed<br>>> > in the box adds more complications during the game. How easy will it be<br>>> for<br>>> > a referee tell the difference between 50% and 30% of the robot over the<br>>> > line? I think the referees need a better explanation of this rule and<br>>> when<br>>> > to enforce it. Does it count if an attacking robot pushes the defending<br>>> > robot in the area? Does it count if the robot is passing through the<br>>> > box,<br>>> > but is not staying in the box (yes, if the ball touches that robot)? I<br>>> can<br>>> > anticipate more arguments during competition around this issue if, for<br>>> > example, the second defender and the goalie are close to each other,<br>>> inside<br>>> > the defense area, and the ball touches one of them. How is a referee<br>>> > supposed to tell which robot the ball touches? Finally, if a second<br>>> > defender would be allowed in the area, what would happen if a third<br>>> crossed<br>>> > the defense line too? Then, not only would the referee have to closely<br>>> watch<br>>> > the third robot to see if it is, in fact, in the defense area, but also<br>>> it<br>>> > might require the initial rule that caused this discussion in the first<br>>> > place. Please also keep in mind that there are currently only two<br>>> referees<br>>> > per game that walk along the sides of the field. During a game, there<br>>> > are<br>>> > usually many team members with many sets of eyes along the ends of the<br>>> field<br>>> > who might have a better view of the defense area, and it is easier for<br>>> them<br>>> > to catch what the referees missed. Thanks, Andrea PalmerUBC Thunderbots<br>>> On<br>>> > Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Carlos Saith Rodriguez<br>>> > <<a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:Hello friends<br>>> ><br>>> > I agree with Yonghai, this rule has created many inconveniences and<br>>> clashes<br>>> > between the teams and that's not good for our community.<br>>> ><br>>> > The proposal is good, but it needs to be very specific. for example, in<br>>> any<br>>> > situation in which the defender touches the ball inside the defense<br>>> > area<br>>> was<br>>> > penalized.<br>>> ><br>>> > More over it is necessary to define exactly when a robot is in the<br>>> defense<br>>> > area: when the robot touches the line delimiting the area or when 50%<br>>> > of<br>>> the<br>>> > robot is inside the area.<br>>> ><br>>> > We must find a solution to decrease the subjective interpretation of<br>>> > the<br>>> > referee.<br>>> ><br>>> > Regards<br>>> ><br>>> > Saith Rodriguez<br>>> > STOx's Team Leader<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> >> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:44:15 +0800<br>>> >> From: <a href="mailto:liunian@zju.edu.cn">liunian@zju.edu.cn</a><br>>> >> To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> >> Subject: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>>> >><br>>> >> Hi everybody,<br>>> >><br>>> >> Maybe everybody in Mexico has a very deep impression on the law<br>>> >> of "Two defender in defence area". There were 3 penalties in the<br>>> >> Quarterfinals Skuba vs Immortals due to this law.<br>>> >> Law 12 of rule 2012 give the detial definition: is the second<br>>> >> defending robot to simultaneously occupy the team's defence area in<br>>> >> such a way tosubstantially affect game play. But the rule did not<br>>> >> give a clear definition of "substantially affect game play", is all up<br>>> >> to the referee. So the problem is comming, i remembered that maybe<br>>> >> more than 50% argument during the game are related to this law.<br>>> >> In real soccer game, there has not limitaion of the number of<br>>> >> defenders in defence area, but only allow the Goal keeper can handle<br>>> >> the ball, if the other player touch the ball with hand, he will<br>>> >> receive a read card and the team will receive a penalty.<br>>> >> We can learn from this real soccer rule. All the robot can enter<br>>> >> it's own defence area, but only the goal keeper can touch the ball, if<br>>> >> the other robot touch the ball, the team will receive a read card and<br>>> >> a penalty.<br>>> >><br>>> >> Best regards.<br>>> >><br>>> >> Yonghai Wu<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> robocup-small mailing list<br>>> >> <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> >> <a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> > robocup-small mailing list<br>>> > <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > <a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> > robocup-small mailing list<br>>> > <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > <a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><br>>> ><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> > robocup-small mailing list<br>>> > <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> > <a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> robocup-small mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>>> <a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><br>>><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>robocup-small mailing list<br><a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br><a href="https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small" target="_blank">https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>