Hi,<div><br></div><div>as Angelo suggested I will herewith start a new thread about the automatic referee.</div><div>Last year, we developed on the autonomous referee from Ulfert, adding some rule changes, displaying a list of rule breaks and added lots of documentation.</div>
<div>We also created a project site with information and instructions: <a href="http://code.google.com/p/ssl-autonomous-refbox/">http://code.google.com/p/ssl-autonomous-refbox/</a></div><div>If you like, you can use the PPA for Ubuntu for easy and fast install to try out the software :)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Unfortunately, we do not have the resources to develop the software further. At least, not without help. The software has a great base, but now it has to be made productive for a real match.</div><div>
I think, most of the points that were mentioned by Yonghai can already be checked by the software.</div><div><br></div><div>However, we should also think about how the software can help the referee best.</div><div>Here are some considerations:</div>
<div><br></div><div> * Run the software in background and let it be watched by an assistant referee?</div><div> * go further by actively sending a STOP signal if a rule break was detected?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra">The idea of a speech recognition sounds good. This would cut off the delay between main referee and assistant referee. The assistant referee could then maybe concentrate on the automatic referee.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Cheers,</div><div class="gmail_extra">Nicolai</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">--</div><div class="gmail_extra">Nicolai Ommer</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">TIGERS Mannheim</div><div class="gmail_extra">Teamleader computer science</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 1:41 PM, yonghai wu <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:liunian@zju.edu.cn" target="_blank">liunian@zju.edu.cn</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I agree with Ulfert, it's time to develop a referee assisting<br>
system the help the referee.<br>
Let this system to do all the measure job for the referee:<br>
1. if the ball kicked out<br>
2. double touch<br>
3. if the opponent robot keep enough distance to ball before the<br>
ball kicked out.<br>
4. if the attacker keep enough distance to the opponent's defence line.<br>
5. if there are two defender in defence area.<br>
6. ball speed<br>
7. if the ball out of feild.<br>
8. log replay.<br>
<br>
All this job can be done by the referee assisting system using SSL VISION.<br>
ZJUNLICT will plan to develop a demo referee assisting system. And<br>
this referee assisting system will support speech recognition which<br>
borrow from @HOME, maybe the main referee can control the referee box<br>
directly.<br>
<br>
<br>
2012/11/23, Ulfert <<a href="mailto:ulfert@double04.de">ulfert@double04.de</a>>:<br>
<div class="im">> Hi all<br>
><br>
> I'm also not active any more, but to tell from my experience as a referee I<br>
> can only encourage all Teams to train their referees. Beeing familiar with<br>
> the rules and practicing at testing matches at Home is the key to a good<br>
> Performance at the big Events.<br>
><br>
> For those situations that are hard to measure by the human referee I once<br>
> developed a referee assisting system which I already promoted in this list,<br>
> so just go ahead and use it ;)<br>
><br>
> Ulfert<br>
><br>
> ----- Reply message -----<br>
> Von: "Thanakorn Panyapiang" <<a href="mailto:stylus_l@hotmail.com">stylus_l@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> An: "Carlos Saith Rodriguez" <<a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a>>,<br>
> "<a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a>><br>
> Betreff: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>
> Datum: Fr., Nov. 23, 2012 11:37<br>
> It's clearly that this rule is necessary to our league because It's prevent<br>
</div><div class="im">> the negative game play, For example, put all robotin front of the goal.<br>
><br>
> In my opinion the problems of this rule is cause by There is no standard for<br>
> the referee decision.<br>
> If we add the image visualization for some situation that difficult for<br>
</div>> referee into the rule bookor make the video guideline and distribute to<br>
<div class="im">> teams,It should be reduce conflict in the real match.<br>
> Regards,O, Skuba<br>
</div><div class="im">> From: <a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:47 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Hi everyone,<br>
><br>
> It is clear that the rule should not be removed, one of the problems that<br>
> our team had in 2011 and 2012 is related to some referees that have<br>
> different interpretations about rules or they just ignore them and we do not<br>
> blame them, we know it's very hard to know all rules and there are some<br>
> rules that can have multiple interpretations.<br>
><br>
> Nevertheless, I do not think you can compare a FIFA referee with one of our<br>
> league, because they do this every day, are very experienced.<br>
><br>
> Our concern is that as all teams have worked hard to get economic resources<br>
> and is very frustrating that everything can be truncated by poor refereeing<br>
> decisions. We realize that there will always be but not as frecuently.<br>
><br>
> It would be great create a guide that should be released months before the<br>
> competitions.<br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
><br>
> Saith Rodriguez<br>
> STOx's Team Leader<br>
><br>
</div><div class="im">> From: <a href="mailto:jgurzoni@yahoo.com.br">jgurzoni@yahoo.com.br</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:33:48 -0200<br>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>
><br>
</div>> Hello everybodyI see the point that this rule alone is a source of disputes<br>
<div class="im">> and a ‘fix’ should be shought, however, I have similar concerns to those<br>
> expressed by Andrea, particularly the difficulties for referees to see the<br>
> event in a split second. Let’s remind also that this rule was created to<br>
> avoid teams simply putting 3 robots in front of the goal, a similar reason<br>
> why the defense area was increased. If we remove it, simply, we may have the<br>
> problem it is currently preventing. I also think that we need to be aware<br>
> that adding ‘precision’ to the rules, like defining a specific percentage of<br>
> the robot in the area, tend not to work because humans can’t detect that<br>
> with naked eye, neither is simple to create measurement systems to this end.<br>
> Teams and referees should focus on the spirit of the rules, not on their<br>
> millimeter precision. The referee’s power to judge an event is important and<br>
> necessary, so what we could do (regardless if this rule actually gets<br>
> modified) is to do what real soccer and virtually every sport does for<br>
> referees: The organizing bodies create guidelines and recommendation to help<br>
> referees to interpret the situations. For example, Fifa issues refereeing<br>
> guidelines giving examples and suggestions about what level of body contact<br>
> is to be allowed, to what level player complaints must be accepted before a<br>
> yellow card, unsporting behavior, and so on. Amanda, Bahador and Chris<br>
</div>> started a guide like that, if I recall correctly. CheersAngelo From:<br>
<div><div class="h5">> <a href="mailto:robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small-bounces@cc.gatech.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Andrea Palmer<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:09 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area" Hi<br>
> all, I agree with Yonghai's statement that this rule caused difficultly in<br>
> Mexico. However, I think so far the suggestions might make it more difficult<br>
> for the referee to monitor. If a second defender would be allowed in the<br>
> area and if it would only be penalized if touched by the ball, then the<br>
> referee must watch both the ball (moving at 8 m/s) and the defending robot's<br>
> proximity to the defense area, as well as everything else he or she must be<br>
> watching on the field. Although reducing referee subjectivity will help<br>
> with more concrete rules of the game and procedures over disputes, making<br>
> the rules too specific by adding the percentage of the robot that is allowed<br>
> in the box adds more complications during the game. How easy will it be for<br>
> a referee tell the difference between 50% and 30% of the robot over the<br>
> line? I think the referees need a better explanation of this rule and when<br>
> to enforce it. Does it count if an attacking robot pushes the defending<br>
> robot in the area? Does it count if the robot is passing through the box,<br>
> but is not staying in the box (yes, if the ball touches that robot)? I can<br>
> anticipate more arguments during competition around this issue if, for<br>
> example, the second defender and the goalie are close to each other, inside<br>
> the defense area, and the ball touches one of them. How is a referee<br>
> supposed to tell which robot the ball touches? Finally, if a second<br>
> defender would be allowed in the area, what would happen if a third crossed<br>
> the defense line too? Then, not only would the referee have to closely watch<br>
> the third robot to see if it is, in fact, in the defense area, but also it<br>
> might require the initial rule that caused this discussion in the first<br>
> place. Please also keep in mind that there are currently only two referees<br>
> per game that walk along the sides of the field. During a game, there are<br>
> usually many team members with many sets of eyes along the ends of the field<br>
> who might have a better view of the defense area, and it is easier for them<br>
</div></div>> to catch what the referees missed. Thanks, Andrea PalmerUBC Thunderbots On<br>
<div class=""><div class="h5">> Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Carlos Saith Rodriguez<br>
> <<a href="mailto:saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com">saith_rodriguez@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:Hello friends<br>
><br>
> I agree with Yonghai, this rule has created many inconveniences and clashes<br>
> between the teams and that's not good for our community.<br>
><br>
> The proposal is good, but it needs to be very specific. for example, in any<br>
> situation in which the defender touches the ball inside the defense area was<br>
> penalized.<br>
><br>
> More over it is necessary to define exactly when a robot is in the defense<br>
> area: when the robot touches the line delimiting the area or when 50% of the<br>
> robot is inside the area.<br>
><br>
> We must find a solution to decrease the subjective interpretation of the<br>
> referee.<br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
><br>
> Saith Rodriguez<br>
> STOx's Team Leader<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:44:15 +0800<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:liunian@zju.edu.cn">liunian@zju.edu.cn</a><br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu">robocup-small@cc.gatech.edu</a><br>
>> Subject: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"<br>
>><br>
>> Hi everybody,<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe everybody in Mexico has a very deep impression on the law<br>
>> of "Two defender in defence area". There were 3 penalties in the<br>
>> Quarterfinals Skuba vs Immortals due to this law.<br>
>> Law 12 of rule 2012 give the detial definition: is the second<br>
>> defending robot to simultaneously occupy the team's defence area in<br>
>> such a way tosubstantially affect game play. But the rule did not<br>
>> give a clear definition of "substantially affect game play", is all up<br>
>> to the referee. So the problem is comming, i remembered that maybe<br>
>> more than 50% argument during the game are related to this law.<br>
>> In real soccer game, there has not limitaion of the number of<br>
>> defenders in defence area, but only allow the Goal keeper can handle<br>
>> the ball, if the other player touch the ball with hand, he will<br>
>> receive a read card and the team will receive a penalty.<br>
>> We can learn from this real soccer rule. All the robot can enter<br>
>> it's own defence area, but only the goal keeper can touch the ball, if<br>
>> the other robot touch the ball, the team will receive a read card and<br>
>> a penalty.<br>
>><br>
>> Best regards.<br>
>><br>
>> Yonghai Wu<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>