[robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 2
Mohammad Mahdi Shirazi
mhmmdshirazi at me.com
Fri Nov 17 03:42:17 EST 2017
Hi dear Robocupers
There are some important points about the new rules that can cause some issues :
1. It’s really good for new-commer teams to have interesting games (not one sided games) against each-other but it’s not really fair to have two devisions. For example the last team of devision A catches no award but if that team was in the devision B could be the champion of that devision.
2. Increase the field size is really good if most of the teams have enough space in their lab to increase field size, because most of the real tests should test on full field! I think it’s good to increase the field size but not for this year. I think if the field will be increased in 2019 Robocup most of the teams have enough time to provide full field but this year they should cancel some of their innovations and try to increase the field size.
Best Regards
Mohammad behalf of Parsian SSL group
> On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:07 PM, robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu wrote:
>
> Send robocup-small mailing list submissions to
> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> robocup-small-owner at cc.gatech.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of robocup-small digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1 (Raul Lapeira)
> 2. Re: robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1 (Stefan P)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:10:40 +0100
> From: Raul Lapeira <raul.lapeira at gmail.com>
> To: SSL List <robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1
> Message-ID:
> <CAODNnLf=hJAvRMN+5fNsATdbtwy6x7J8cEYuiCdmn7+okXv4wQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Amazing changes... just a comment: I am pretty sure that if a little more
> improvement can be achieved (like the one you state) we could market this
> category heavily to sponsors here in Spain. It is usually difficult to get
> money to build teams if you are not an university but if some of those
> things go forward I am sure we could get at least a team in Madrid and
> another in Barcelona and have recurrent matches.
>
> This category is in the position to drive investment in the Robocup as a
> whole in my opinion.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 7:19 PM, <robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Send robocup-small mailing list submissions to
>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> robocup-small-owner at cc.gatech.edu
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of robocup-small digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. RoboCup 2018 Changes (Christian Lobmeier)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:12:48 +0100
>> From: Christian Lobmeier <pardinensis at gmail.com>
>> To: rc-ssl-tc at lists.robocup.org, rc-ssl-oc at lists.robocup.org,
>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> Subject: [robocup-small] RoboCup 2018 Changes
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALw+80fFNKc34FXHUUhnjz7n=4xiSQQrpAb5op1z2qQihp_6TA at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> The SSL is in a challenging state right now. Especially in comparison to
>> other leagues, the SSL suffers from a distinct lack of innovation and
>> progress. The technical challenges are mostly ignored, the mixed team
>> challenge has been an absolute catastrophe and even the competition games
>> looked similar to 5 years ago.
>>
>> If we want to be able to contribute something to the oft-cited goal of
>> 2050, we need changes, big changes. And we need to start to make these
>> changes now. So without further ado, lets get right down to business.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Divisions
>>
>>
>> Starting in 2018, the Small Size League will be divided into two divisions
>> with separate tournaments: Division A and division B. Division A is aimed
>> at advanced teams whereas new and/or less competitive teams can play in
>> division B. Each team will only play in one of those two divisions. When
>> submitting the qualification material, the team also chooses a preferred
>> division including a short rationale. The OC will have the final word. We
>> are aiming at around 12 teams per division.
>>
>> There are multiple benefits of having two divisions.
>>
>> -
>>
>> The SSL has a rather high entry barrier. Our goal is to further advance
>> the league while keeping the entry barrier at a reasonable level. With
>> splitting the league, we can challenge seasoned teams while still being
>> attractive for newcomers. The qualification criteria for the division B
>> can
>> even be lowered a bit without hurting the competition.
>> -
>>
>> Feedback from this year?s RoboCup has shown that it is very important
>> for teams to face off against opponents of similar skill. Dividing the
>> league into two divisions rids a lot of the one sided games in exchange
>> for
>> more interesting match-ups.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Increased number of robots
>>
>>
>> This change applies to division A only. The intermediate-term goal of the
>> SSL is to be the first league to play 11v11 with actual robots (discounting
>> the simulation leagues). To achieve this goal, division A will play with 8
>> robots per team by 2018 and with 11 robots by 2019 or 2020.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Increased field size
>>
>>
>> This change applies to division A only. To provide enough space for 8 (and
>> later on 11) robots, the field size will be increased. There are no final
>> decisions regarding the concrete dimensions, mostly because we don?t know
>> yet how much space the SSL is allowed to allocate. The current plan is to
>> double the size of the field (to 9x12m) while increasing the width of the
>> goal by 20 percent (to 1.20m). The defense area will also be increased by
>> 20 percent in each dimension compared to the smaller field. Division B will
>> still use a 6x9m field.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Rectangular defense area
>>
>>
>> This change applies to both divisions. Speaking of the defense area, it is
>> time to introduce some changes there. Every single team uses some sort of
>> defenders that always move along the defense area. It is obviously a very
>> effective defense strategy and rather easy to implement. To make the
>> defense more interesting, the shape of the defense area will be changed to
>> a rectangle (2.40x1.20m for the large field, 2.00x1.00m for the small
>> field). The rules regarding the defense area will stay the same. This means
>> that attackers and defenders are still allowed to move through the defense
>> area as long as they don?t touch the ball.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Reduced ball speed
>>
>>
>> This change applies to both divisions. Even though the field increases
>> quite a bit for division A, the maximum allowed ball speed will be reduced
>> from 8m/s to 6.5m/s.
>>
>> Currently, it is very common to score goals from large distance, even
>> against strong teams. The reason is that the ball is fast enough to make it
>> through a hole in the defense without the defenders being able to react in
>> time. This is not a bad thing by itself, the defense should just anticipate
>> passes and future attack maneuvers. However, the offense is currently very
>> one-dimensional. It all boils down to finding or forcing a hole in the
>> defense and exploiting it. There is only little advantage gained by being
>> able to bring the ball towards the opponent goal without losing possession
>> or getting marked. By reducing the maximum ball speed, long distance shots
>> are less likely to succeed resulting in a stronger focus on positional
>> play.
>>
>> The signature high pace of our league will not be affected by this change.
>> First, the viewer will most likely not even notice the difference in shoot
>> speed and second, the high pace is not affected by the speed of the robots
>> or the speed of the ball, but of the frequency of actions (e.g. passes,
>> goal shots).
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Excellence Award
>>
>>
>> The RoboCup unites two very different ideas: research in robotics and a
>> soccer competition. While it usually synergizes quite well, there are some
>> conflicts when it comes to the actual goals and motivations. The goals of
>> the RoboCup is to promote research and innovation and advance the field of
>> robotics as a whole. A major goal of the teams is to win the competition.
>> The problem is that investing time into research does not necessarily
>> improve the results in the RoboCup competition, especially if the new ideas
>> don?t work out as intended. Instead, the most effective way to succeed is
>> to only make small, incremental changes and use tested and trusted
>> technologies. Thankfully, a lot of teams do actual research and try out new
>> technologies. To honor that, we will introduce the Excellence Award.
>>
>> The Excellence Award is a judged award given to teams that show a lot of
>> overall skill and dedication to the long-term goals of the RoboCup. The
>> criteria include:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Performance in competition games
>> -
>>
>> Performance in Technical Challenges
>> -
>>
>> Sportsmanship
>> -
>>
>> Research Contributions
>> -
>>
>> Innovation
>>
>>
>> This Excellence Award will be the most important award given out to SSL
>> teams on the RoboCup. More information regarding awards will be released in
>> spring.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Qualification process
>>
>>
>> Obviously, the (E)TDP is a central part of the qualification and is used to
>> determine whether a team is able to participate or not. However, in 2017
>> the (E)TDPs and their reviews have been ignored for the qualification
>> results. This won?t happen next year. Each team is required to submit a
>> (E)TDP that follows the given guidelines
>> <http://wiki.robocup.org/Small_Size_League/RoboCup_2018/Qualification>. If
>> the paper lacks quality, the team will only be conditionally qualified and
>> has the chance to incorporate the feedback into the paper. If the second
>> version does not improve significantly, the team will not be qualified for
>> the RoboCup.
>>
>> Since the RoboCup is in June, the whole qualification process will start
>> earlier this year:
>>
>> -
>>
>> TDP Submission Deadline: January 16, 2018
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> TDP Peer Review Deadline: February 2, 2018
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> Additional changes
>>
>>
>> The following rule changes will be made this year, the points below are a
>> summary of the changes and may differ slightly from the final text in the
>> rules.
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> Only linear shots can be used to score a goal. If the ball height
>> exceeds the robot height between the last contact of an attacker and the
>> crossing of the goal line, the goal will not be scored.
>> -
>>
>> Automatic ball placement becomes mandatory for division A.
>> -
>>
>> The collision rule will be reworked. If two robots collide with a
>> relative speed of more than 1.5m/s, the faster robot committed a foul.
>> -
>>
>> The bar above the goal will be removed to provide better vision in the
>> goal.
>> -
>>
>> If two teams want to collaborate and appear and participate as one, they
>> will now be able to register as a joint team.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are aware that these changes mean a lot of work for everyone, but we
>> think that they are necessary to improve our league as a whole. If you have
>> any criticism, good or bad, or if some points are not clear to you, don't
>> hesitate to write us a mail. Even though these changes are the result of
>> months of discussion, nothing is written in stone, yet.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Christian Lobmeier
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/pipermail/robocup-small/
>> attachments/20171115/f2e55f8e/attachment.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> robocup-small mailing list
>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>>
>>
>> End of robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1
>> *********************************************
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 14:31:11 -0500
> From: Stefan P <stefan.posey at gatech.edu>
> To: Raul Lapeira <raul.lapeira at gmail.com>
> Cc: SSL List <robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1
> Message-ID:
> <CAHfYZEh85pTY5HTBzdP-EjLRbj-f9bqsL++SLDkDMPQZ6OtHGg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Would there be an interest in a "division B" reference platform?
>
> Possibly targeted toward new teams and with a limited feature set (example
> only kicking no chipping capability).
>
> --
> Stefan Posey
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Raul Lapeira <raul.lapeira at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Amazing changes... just a comment: I am pretty sure that if a little more
>> improvement can be achieved (like the one you state) we could market this
>> category heavily to sponsors here in Spain. It is usually difficult to get
>> money to build teams if you are not an university but if some of those
>> things go forward I am sure we could get at least a team in Madrid and
>> another in Barcelona and have recurrent matches.
>>
>> This category is in the position to drive investment in the Robocup as a
>> whole in my opinion.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 7:19 PM, <robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Send robocup-small mailing list submissions to
>>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> robocup-small-request at cc.gatech.edu
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> robocup-small-owner at cc.gatech.edu
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of robocup-small digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. RoboCup 2018 Changes (Christian Lobmeier)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:12:48 +0100
>>> From: Christian Lobmeier <pardinensis at gmail.com>
>>> To: rc-ssl-tc at lists.robocup.org, rc-ssl-oc at lists.robocup.org,
>>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>>> Subject: [robocup-small] RoboCup 2018 Changes
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CALw+80fFNKc34FXHUUhnjz7n=4xiSQQrpAb5op1z2qQihp_6TA at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> The SSL is in a challenging state right now. Especially in comparison to
>>> other leagues, the SSL suffers from a distinct lack of innovation and
>>> progress. The technical challenges are mostly ignored, the mixed team
>>> challenge has been an absolute catastrophe and even the competition games
>>> looked similar to 5 years ago.
>>>
>>> If we want to be able to contribute something to the oft-cited goal of
>>> 2050, we need changes, big changes. And we need to start to make these
>>> changes now. So without further ado, lets get right down to business.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Divisions
>>>
>>>
>>> Starting in 2018, the Small Size League will be divided into two divisions
>>> with separate tournaments: Division A and division B. Division A is aimed
>>> at advanced teams whereas new and/or less competitive teams can play in
>>> division B. Each team will only play in one of those two divisions. When
>>> submitting the qualification material, the team also chooses a preferred
>>> division including a short rationale. The OC will have the final word. We
>>> are aiming at around 12 teams per division.
>>>
>>> There are multiple benefits of having two divisions.
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> The SSL has a rather high entry barrier. Our goal is to further advance
>>> the league while keeping the entry barrier at a reasonable level. With
>>> splitting the league, we can challenge seasoned teams while still being
>>> attractive for newcomers. The qualification criteria for the division
>>> B can
>>> even be lowered a bit without hurting the competition.
>>> -
>>>
>>> Feedback from this year?s RoboCup has shown that it is very important
>>> for teams to face off against opponents of similar skill. Dividing the
>>> league into two divisions rids a lot of the one sided games in
>>> exchange for
>>> more interesting match-ups.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Increased number of robots
>>>
>>>
>>> This change applies to division A only. The intermediate-term goal of the
>>> SSL is to be the first league to play 11v11 with actual robots
>>> (discounting
>>> the simulation leagues). To achieve this goal, division A will play with 8
>>> robots per team by 2018 and with 11 robots by 2019 or 2020.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Increased field size
>>>
>>>
>>> This change applies to division A only. To provide enough space for 8 (and
>>> later on 11) robots, the field size will be increased. There are no final
>>> decisions regarding the concrete dimensions, mostly because we don?t know
>>> yet how much space the SSL is allowed to allocate. The current plan is to
>>> double the size of the field (to 9x12m) while increasing the width of the
>>> goal by 20 percent (to 1.20m). The defense area will also be increased by
>>> 20 percent in each dimension compared to the smaller field. Division B
>>> will
>>> still use a 6x9m field.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Rectangular defense area
>>>
>>>
>>> This change applies to both divisions. Speaking of the defense area, it is
>>> time to introduce some changes there. Every single team uses some sort of
>>> defenders that always move along the defense area. It is obviously a very
>>> effective defense strategy and rather easy to implement. To make the
>>> defense more interesting, the shape of the defense area will be changed to
>>> a rectangle (2.40x1.20m for the large field, 2.00x1.00m for the small
>>> field). The rules regarding the defense area will stay the same. This
>>> means
>>> that attackers and defenders are still allowed to move through the defense
>>> area as long as they don?t touch the ball.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Reduced ball speed
>>>
>>>
>>> This change applies to both divisions. Even though the field increases
>>> quite a bit for division A, the maximum allowed ball speed will be reduced
>>> from 8m/s to 6.5m/s.
>>>
>>> Currently, it is very common to score goals from large distance, even
>>> against strong teams. The reason is that the ball is fast enough to make
>>> it
>>> through a hole in the defense without the defenders being able to react in
>>> time. This is not a bad thing by itself, the defense should just
>>> anticipate
>>> passes and future attack maneuvers. However, the offense is currently very
>>> one-dimensional. It all boils down to finding or forcing a hole in the
>>> defense and exploiting it. There is only little advantage gained by being
>>> able to bring the ball towards the opponent goal without losing possession
>>> or getting marked. By reducing the maximum ball speed, long distance shots
>>> are less likely to succeed resulting in a stronger focus on positional
>>> play.
>>>
>>> The signature high pace of our league will not be affected by this change.
>>> First, the viewer will most likely not even notice the difference in shoot
>>> speed and second, the high pace is not affected by the speed of the robots
>>> or the speed of the ball, but of the frequency of actions (e.g. passes,
>>> goal shots).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Excellence Award
>>>
>>>
>>> The RoboCup unites two very different ideas: research in robotics and a
>>> soccer competition. While it usually synergizes quite well, there are some
>>> conflicts when it comes to the actual goals and motivations. The goals of
>>> the RoboCup is to promote research and innovation and advance the field of
>>> robotics as a whole. A major goal of the teams is to win the competition.
>>> The problem is that investing time into research does not necessarily
>>> improve the results in the RoboCup competition, especially if the new
>>> ideas
>>> don?t work out as intended. Instead, the most effective way to succeed is
>>> to only make small, incremental changes and use tested and trusted
>>> technologies. Thankfully, a lot of teams do actual research and try out
>>> new
>>> technologies. To honor that, we will introduce the Excellence Award.
>>>
>>> The Excellence Award is a judged award given to teams that show a lot of
>>> overall skill and dedication to the long-term goals of the RoboCup. The
>>> criteria include:
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Performance in competition games
>>> -
>>>
>>> Performance in Technical Challenges
>>> -
>>>
>>> Sportsmanship
>>> -
>>>
>>> Research Contributions
>>> -
>>>
>>> Innovation
>>>
>>>
>>> This Excellence Award will be the most important award given out to SSL
>>> teams on the RoboCup. More information regarding awards will be released
>>> in
>>> spring.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Qualification process
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, the (E)TDP is a central part of the qualification and is used
>>> to
>>> determine whether a team is able to participate or not. However, in 2017
>>> the (E)TDPs and their reviews have been ignored for the qualification
>>> results. This won?t happen next year. Each team is required to submit a
>>> (E)TDP that follows the given guidelines
>>> <http://wiki.robocup.org/Small_Size_League/RoboCup_2018/Qualification>.
>>> If
>>> the paper lacks quality, the team will only be conditionally qualified and
>>> has the chance to incorporate the feedback into the paper. If the second
>>> version does not improve significantly, the team will not be qualified for
>>> the RoboCup.
>>>
>>> Since the RoboCup is in June, the whole qualification process will start
>>> earlier this year:
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> TDP Submission Deadline: January 16, 2018
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> TDP Peer Review Deadline: February 2, 2018
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Additional changes
>>>
>>>
>>> The following rule changes will be made this year, the points below are a
>>> summary of the changes and may differ slightly from the final text in the
>>> rules.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Only linear shots can be used to score a goal. If the ball height
>>> exceeds the robot height between the last contact of an attacker and
>>> the
>>> crossing of the goal line, the goal will not be scored.
>>> -
>>>
>>> Automatic ball placement becomes mandatory for division A.
>>> -
>>>
>>> The collision rule will be reworked. If two robots collide with a
>>> relative speed of more than 1.5m/s, the faster robot committed a foul.
>>> -
>>>
>>> The bar above the goal will be removed to provide better vision in the
>>> goal.
>>> -
>>>
>>> If two teams want to collaborate and appear and participate as one,
>>> they
>>> will now be able to register as a joint team.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are aware that these changes mean a lot of work for everyone, but we
>>> think that they are necessary to improve our league as a whole. If you
>>> have
>>> any criticism, good or bad, or if some points are not clear to you, don't
>>> hesitate to write us a mail. Even though these changes are the result of
>>> months of discussion, nothing is written in stone, yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Christian Lobmeier
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/pipermail/robocup-small/attac
>>> hments/20171115/f2e55f8e/attachment.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> robocup-small mailing list
>>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>>> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>>>
>>>
>>> End of robocup-small Digest, Vol 145, Issue 1
>>> *********************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> robocup-small mailing list
>> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
>> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>>
>>
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> robocup-small mailing list
> robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>
>
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