[robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"

[Jan]

I agree that adding precision to this rule will make it more difficult to
the referee. But I think that we are leaving aside the auxiliary referee.

I think we should split concerns between the referees so the main ref won't
have to worry about this particular rule, and the auxiliary ref would have
to worry less about other rules and more about this one. This would allow
for an increase on the precision of this rule. Similar to side referees
having to worry about offside.

Even though, this increase would have to be feasible. I don't know what's
best, but definitely not something about percentages. Maybe something like
no defender may touch the line, or only one defender per offender allowed.

I agree that the intention of this rule is what should drive
its subjectivity, but we should think about someday automating the referee,
and it's not feasible to add this kind of subjectivity to an AI. Therefore
it's important to think about a path to an automatic rule.

Anyway, I just wanted to remind that we have two referees on the field and
we can use that to make this rule a little less subjective.

Regards,
Jan Segre
RoboIME


On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Thanakorn Panyapiang
<stylus_l at hotmail.com>wrote:

> It's clearly that this rule is necessary to our league because It's
> prevent the negative game play, For example, put all robot
> in front of the goal.
>
> In my opinion the problems of this rule is cause by There is no standard
> for the referee decision.
>
> If we add the image visualization for some situation that difficult for
> referee into the rule book
> or make the video guideline  and distribute to teams,It should be reduce
> conflict in the real match.
>
> Regards,
> O, Skuba
>
> ------------------------------
> From: saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com
> To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:47 -0500
>
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>
>  Hi everyone,
>
> It is clear that the rule should not be removed, one of the problems that
> our team had in 2011 and 2012 is related to some referees that have
> different interpretations about rules or they just ignore them and we do
> not blame them, we know it's very hard  to know all rules and there are
> some rules that can have multiple interpretations.
>
> Nevertheless,  I do not think you can compare a FIFA referee with one of
> our league, because they do this every day, are very experienced.
>
> Our concern is that as all teams have worked hard to get economic
> resources and is very frustrating that everything can be truncated by poor
> refereeing decisions. We realize that there will always be but not as
> frecuently.
>
> It would be great create a guide that should be released months before the
> competitions.
>
> Regards
>
> Saith Rodriguez
> STOx's Team Leader
>
> ------------------------------
> From: jgurzoni at yahoo.com.br
> To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:33:48 -0200
> Subject: Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>
> Hello everybody
>
> I see the point that this rule alone is a source of disputes and a ‘fix’
> should be shought, however, I have similar concerns to those expressed by
> Andrea, particularly the difficulties for referees to see the event in a
> split second. Let’s remind also that this rule was created to avoid teams
> simply putting 3 robots in front of the goal, a similar reason why the
> defense area was increased. If we remove it, simply, we may have the
> problem it is currently preventing.
>
>
>
> I also think that we need to be aware that adding ‘precision’ to the
> rules, like defining a specific percentage of the robot in the area, tend
> not to work because humans can’t detect that with naked eye, neither is
> simple to create measurement systems to this end. Teams and referees should
> focus on the spirit of the rules, not on their millimeter precision.
>
> The referee’s power to judge an event is important and necessary, so what
> we could do (regardless if this rule actually gets modified) is to do what
> real soccer and virtually every sport does for referees: The organizing
> bodies create guidelines and recommendation to help referees to interpret
> the situations. For example, Fifa issues refereeing guidelines giving
> examples and suggestions about what level of body contact is to be allowed,
> to what level player complaints must be accepted before a yellow card,
> unsporting behavior, and so on.
>
> Amanda, Bahador and Chris started a guide like that, if I recall
> correctly.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Angelo
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu [mailto:
> robocup-small-bounces at cc.gatech.edu] *On Behalf Of *Andrea Palmer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:09 PM
> *To:* robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Yonghai's statement that this rule caused difficultly in
> Mexico. However, I think so far the suggestions might make it *more* difficult
> for the referee to monitor.
>
>
>
>  If a second defender would be allowed in the area and if it would only be
> penalized if touched by the ball, then the referee must watch both the ball
> (moving at 8 m/s) and the defending robot's proximity to the defense area,
> as well as everything else he or she must be watching on the field.
>
>
>
> Although reducing referee subjectivity will help with more concrete rules
> of the game and procedures over disputes, making the rules *too* specific
> by adding the percentage of the robot that is allowed in the box adds more
> complications during the game. How easy will it be for a referee tell the
> difference between 50% and 30% of the robot over the line?  I think the
> referees need a better explanation of this rule and when to enforce it.
> Does it count if an attacking robot pushes the defending robot in the area?
> Does it count if the robot is passing through the box, but is not staying
> in the box (yes, if the ball touches that robot)?
>
>
>
> I can anticipate more arguments during competition around this issue if,
> for example, the second defender and the goalie are close to each other,
> inside the defense area, and the ball touches one of them. How is a referee
> supposed to tell which robot the ball touches?
>
>
>
> Finally, if a second defender would be allowed in the area, what would
> happen if a third crossed the defense line too? Then, not only would the
> referee have to closely watch the third robot to see if it is, in fact, in
> the defense area, but also it might require the initial rule that caused
> this discussion in the first place.
>
>
>
> Please also keep in mind that there are currently only two referees per
> game that walk along the sides of the field. During a game, there are
> usually many team members with many sets of eyes along the ends of the
> field who might have a better view of the defense area, and it is easier
> for them to catch what the referees missed.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Andrea Palmer
>
> UBC Thunderbots
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Carlos Saith Rodriguez <
> saith_rodriguez at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello friends
>
> I agree with Yonghai, this rule has created many inconveniences and
> clashes between the teams and that's not good for our community.
>
> The proposal is good, but it needs to be very specific. for example, in
> any situation in which the defender touches the ball inside the defense
> area was penalized.
>
> More over it is necessary to define exactly when a robot is in the defense
> area: when the robot touches the line delimiting the area or when 50% of
> the robot is inside the area.
>
> We must find a solution to decrease the subjective interpretation of the
> referee.
>
> Regards
>
> Saith Rodriguez
> STOx's Team Leader
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:44:15 +0800
> > From: liunian at zju.edu.cn
> > To: robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> > Subject: [robocup-small] the rule of "Two defender in defence area"
>
>
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Maybe everybody in Mexico has a very deep impression on the law
> > of "Two defender in defence area". There were 3 penalties in the
> > Quarterfinals Skuba vs Immortals due to this law.
> > Law 12 of rule 2012 give the detial definition: is the second
> > defending robot to simultaneously occupy the team's defence area in
> > such a way tosubstantially affect game play. But the rule did not
> > give a clear definition of "substantially affect game play", is all up
> > to the referee. So the problem is comming, i remembered that maybe
> > more than 50% argument during the game are related to this law.
> > In real soccer game, there has not limitaion of the number of
> > defenders in defence area, but only allow the Goal keeper can handle
> > the ball, if the other player touch the ball with hand, he will
> > receive a read card and the team will receive a penalty.
> > We can learn from this real soccer rule. All the robot can enter
> > it's own defence area, but only the goal keeper can touch the ball, if
> > the other robot touch the ball, the team will receive a read card and
> > a penalty.
> >
> > Best regards.
> >
> > Yonghai Wu
> > _______________________________________________
> > robocup-small mailing list
> > robocup-small at cc.gatech.edu
> > https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-small
>
>
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