[robocup-nao] Final Nao rules for 2008

Hans-Dieter Burkhard hdb at informatik.hu-berlin.de
Fri Jul 4 09:35:32 EDT 2008


Hi,

I have no real idea, but try to understand the consequences
if we want to prevent robots from falling down by such rules.


If we look from the perspective of the ball: The rule
permits only one player in a region of at least 25 cm 
around the ball. Consequences:
- No direct fight for the ball is possible.
- An active player inside of that region is really "safe". 

Maybe we have options like these:
- We could extend the ball holding rule, such that the
  time in this region is restricted to e.g. 30 seconds.
  After that time the ball must be kicked away, the player must
  have left the region, or the player is penalized.
- such a rule (or similar ones) should not be applied for the 
  goalie (there the game stuck rule is applicable)?
  

Dieter   


P.S. what is state with the referee box? Will it exist?  - D.
  
  



> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> Yes, I agree, the player pushing rule is a difficult one this time. And 
> I didn't want to push for allowing more competition for the ball.
> But it is my impression that a robot which is handling the ball in a way 
> that increases the situation in tiny incremental steps (continuously 
> adjusting its orientation towards the opponent goal, sometimes touching 
> the ball a bit, maybe even a very slow dribbling behavior) could not be 
> approached, hindered or stopped in any way given the current rule.
> If the defender acts correctly and only positions itself between 
> opponent with ball and its own goal, then it could not do anything or 
> would even have to move backwards step by step in order to not come into 
> the 50cm range of the offensive robot, which would be closer to the ball 
> and handling it, thus showing interest (see example 2 in the rules). 
> This is a loophole that should be considered, either by updating the 
> local game stuck with something like "no big advancements over the time 
> of 1 minute" or by allowing the defender to remain standing in the way 
> to block it.
> 
> By the way, the rules don't say anything about the ball, yet. I suppose 
> we still play with the standard balls from the 4legged league?
> Since the hardware league is playing with orange tennis balls, our 
> current ball should be specified here, perhaps with a note that next 
> year we will probably also use tennis balls (which are easier to obtain).
> 
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> Michael Quinlan wrote:
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> > Point 1:
> > -  So I agree that teams with get up routines should be allowed to use 
> > them (and should gain an advantage). I would teams to inform the 
> > referee at the beginning of the match if they posses to ability to 
> > stand up. When a robot falls over it is then given sufficient time to 
> > stand up before being penalised (if it fails).
> > - I also like the idea of moving the robots to the side (basically the 
> > same as the ball out of bounds). For example they would be moved 
> > sideways (to the opposite side from the ball) and also 1m from 
> > backwards away from the ball.
> >
> > Point 2:
> >  - This is hard one to get right (and we are open to suggestions to 
> > make this better).  It depends on how much value we place on robot 
> > safety, I for one don't want to see my robot broken because another 
> > robot fell into it. BUT I also love to see robots competing for the 
> > ball, how to achieve this balance is difficult.
> >  - I would probably add that the keeper can not be called for 
> > violating the 50cm rule when it stays inside the penalty box. Maybe 
> > this is the case where the offensive robot has to kick the ball or its 
> > penalized for being within 50cm of the keeper.
> >
> > Keep the suggestions coming ...
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Stefan Czarnetzki wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I would like to encourage clarification on two issues:
> >>
> >> 1. The rule concerning fallen robots.
> >> As Dieter said, the rule is not in the file yet and there are still 
> >> some questions. To those I would like to add, that a robot should not 
> >> be able to get an advantage out of this penalty, i.e. it should never 
> >> be placed nearer to the ball than it was when falling down. This 
> >> might happen if robots are put in without any time penalty at the 
> >> halfway line. If the ball is in front of the opponent goal, a robot 
> >> falling down in the back corner of its own half could gain nearly 2 
> >> meters without losing much time.
> >> Additionally it should be considered that stand-up motions are indeed 
> >> possible. I know of at least three persons having developed such 
> >> motions independently. Having these motions would make the game much 
> >> nicer to look at and should be an advantage.
> >>
> >> Either a moderate time penalty (10-15s) or alternative points for 
> >> replacement might be a solution. Since we already have the throw-in 
> >> line, we could also use it for placing fallen robots.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2. The player "pushing" rule.
> >> Preventing the robots from entering a 50cm zone around each other 
> >> might result in a nicer game without robots lying on the ground all 
> >> the time and hopefully also in our Naos surviving a bit longer.
> >> On the other hand this rule gives a robot all the time it wants for 
> >> positioning around the ball. Others would not be allowed to come 
> >> closer, not even the goalie in its own penaly area. Touching the ball 
> >> once in a while prevents global game stuck and achieving a better 
> >> shooting orientation might be considered a change substantially 
> >> enough to prevent local game stuck, too.
> >> The player pushing rule should be clarified with reference to the 
> >> local game stuck rule to prevent such situations.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Çetin Meriçli wrote:
> >>  
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> The finalized Nao rules are uploaded to the league website 
> >>> (http://www.tzi.de/4legged/pub/Website/Downloads/NaoRules2008.pdf). 
> >>> The changes can be listed as:
> >>>
> >>> - Number of players is reduced to 3 vs. 3.
> >>> - Player pushing rule is changed in order to minimize physical 
> >>> contact of the robots.
> >>> - Human assistance (by the assistant referees) is allowed on fallen 
> >>> robots. They will get a zero seconds penalty and moved to the 
> >>> halfway line.
> >>> - Local game stuck rule is modified.
> >>> - Ball holding rule is modified.
> >>> - It is allowed to play without colored parts on the shoulders and 
> >>> on the feet.
> >>> - It is allowed to fix wrist joints with glue/transparent duct tape.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry for the delay, and hope to see you all in Suzhou!
> >>>
> >>> 2008 Technical and Organizing Committees
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> https://lists.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/robocup-nao
> >>>
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> >>   
> >
> >
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